An interesting question posed by fellow Egyptian blogger Jimmy. Read the answer he wrote here:
Is America a secular state? If you are going to answer with “Yes”, reconsider it. If you question the extent to which America is secular you would find out that it is very insecure to call the United States a “secular state”.
The question popped in my head when I heard one of the audience at last week’s Oprah saying “We are a religious nation”… He demanded all religious books, specially the Bible, be taught in public schools so the students would know more about the religions of the world. Then, some of the audience, one is a public school headmaster, rejected the whole idea as it is going to cost the schools more money, and goes against the “secular” principles of America.
To what extent is America a secular country??
According to the American Heritage Dictionary, ‘Secularization’ is noun from the verb ‘Secularize’ which means:To draw away from religious orientation; make worldly.
And if you look up the meaning of the word ‘Secularism’ in an encyclopedia you would find out that:
Secularism is generally the assertion that certain practices or institutions should exist separately from religion or religious belief. Alternatively, it is a principle of promoting secular ideas or values in either public or private settings. It may also be a synonym for “secularist movement”. In the extreme, it is an ideology that holds that religion has no place in public life. (Free Online Dictionary by Farlex)
And with little research into the definition of “Separation of Church and State”, the following is found:
In the United States, the “Separation of Church and State” is generally discussed as political and legal principle derived from the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, which reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . .” The concept of separation is commonly credited to the combination of the two clauses: the establishment clause, generally interpreted as preventing the government from establishing a national religion, providing tax money in support of religion, or otherwise favoring any single religion or religion generally, and the free exercise clause, ensuring that private religious practices not be restricted by the government. The effect of prohibiting direct connections between religious and governmental institutions while protecting private religious freedom and autonomy has been termed the “separation of church and state.”
Looking at the definition, and the later facts, it would leave no doubt that the United States constitution is simply based on the soul and true meaning of secularism… right?
No, in fact IT IS NOT.
I am not the one saying so, this is not an Egyptian young man’s claim… It is what the US House Judiciary Committee Report concluded in 1853 as the basis of its decision to deny a request to separate Christianity from the ongoings of the government. Here I quote it to you:At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the amendments the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, not any one sect…. There can be no substitute for Christianity … that was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants. The great, vital and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and divine truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Then in 1892, the United States Supreme Court stated that:
Our law and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind . . . it is impossible that it should be otherwise and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian.
That is to say, in real life, the United States Supreme Court and US House Judiciary Committee have ruled out the establishment clause in the United States constitution and applied what they thought was right. But, what if the greatest presidents of the United States, who applied constitution themselves, are stating the same opinion as the US Supreme Court and the US House Judiciary Committee?? Read what James Madison (who took part in drafting the US Constitution) says:
We have staked the future of government not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions on the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the ten commandments of God.
Then comes George Washington:
It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible…. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency … We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained.
Then John Adams comes to state that the US Constitution is for religious people!!! Read:
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. So great is my veneration of the Bible that the earlier my children begin to read it, the more confident will be my hope that they will prove useful citizens of their country and respectful members of society.
And John Jay’s advice for the US citizens:
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty of as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for its rulers.
Things will be even more interesting if you continue to read Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Benjamin Franklin or Andrew Jackson say about Christianity being the “rock on which our Republic rests”. Check The Forerunner.
Can you see the contradiction at hand here?? The authors of the United States Constitution and, later, the presidents who apply this constitution are just stating the complete opposite of what they have authored. Then we move from words to reality.
Since 1957, each and every US banknote or coin bears the following statement: “In God we Trust”… Isn’t this one a religious symbol that printed on the country’s currency which is one of the US symbols? How secular is that?
Adding the statement: “Under one God” to the Pledge of Allegiance… How worldly and unreligious is that?
Using a Bible, or Quran in one case, for new congressmen to be sworn in; how secular and irreligiously oriented is that?
Blocking laws for homosexuality and abortion on religious basis since the Neo-cons are religious people and they are in power. To what extent is that secular of the United States?Allowing schools and institutions to be built on religious basis (catholic schools… etc.), isn’t this an unconstitutional act in light of the establishment act in the US Constitution?
To make myself clear here, I am not attacking the United States for being unsecular. On the contrary, I am against secularism at some great points. What I am saying here is that if America itself cannot separate politics and state from religion, why are you calling other countries to apply what you failed to apply.
I never stop reading remarks about the Muslim Brotherhood in US newspapers that they want to apply Sharia law. No one stops attacking Iran over mingling religion with politics…. The list is too long to mention….
The bottom line is, why are you attacking people for building their constitution on the basis of their national religion when you do the same yourselves? Why attack the Egyptian Constitutions second item that says: “Sharia Law is the conrner stone of legislation” when it is practically applied to the core, at the same time you put Christianity as the corner stone of your state?
How legitimate it is of America to make such demands when the American house has so much cleaning and tidying up to be done?
I’d really like to add anything, but I can’t figure out what.
The Sphinx
Officially declared by wingnuts. Click 
Thing is, the recent Catholic School grad isn’t strapping a bomb on his chest to get 72 pieces of … well you know…
I know people who send their kids to Islamic schools, and no, they don’t believe in that. So please don’t cling on to sweeping generalizations. Or do you like people viewing all Christian education institutions as similar to “Jesus Camp”? (//Edit: Or Sunday schools being places of sodomy?)
Sorry for the generalization, your right,,,
however, there are more muslim schools spitting out terror than a “christian” school… never saw Jesus Camp, one look at the cover and I already knew what kind of nutbags were in it…sodomy in sunday school??
Just my opinion…
I’m not a christian by the way so won’t defend them much either…
From where I sit, the secular part of the US is that we will not promote one religion over another.
This will be offensive, I think.
Dude, just go live in Saudi Arabia. I don’t know what you’re doing living out of the “Islamic… Oh I mean, Arabic World” if you’re going to keep whining about how Christianity in Europe and the US sucks, about how Christians are pure evil because they don’t believe in Mohammed and don’t cry their prayers out loud – bugging everyone around, mind you. As long as Saudi Arabia isn’t giving Christians their rights, stop complaining that the US and the rest of the world isn’t giving Muslims their rights. This does sound logical to me, what about you? I am not sure how things were socially handled 500 years ago when Christianity meant terrorism. But what I care about is today for the sake of a better tomorrow and today Islam is terrorism – even socially, in a sense where Muslims imply themselves on others forcefully, and yes this is the way things are – live with it. Instead of shitting about what others are doing, look at what _your_ people are doing, fix it and then fix the others – by being an example maybe? How phony Americans are when it comes to religion & co., boys are being sexually harassed in Saudi Arabia by men and their women come to Egypt at every occasion to find sex – do the math. This is out of some of my friends’ experiences with Arabs – and those friends are Muslims themselves. I’ll make it simple, hell a lot of fanatic Muslims go to the US and Europe to find education then come back to Egypt and criticize the countries that made them what they are now, just because of a bunch of silly different religious beliefs. Talk about phoniness. No offense, but I see you as one of them. Talk about homosexual Imams – NOTE THIS – being murdered by other Imams for coming out of the closet. Talk about “Friday Schools” and Amr Khaled (or Mohammed Camp for crying out loud) if you are going to shit about Sunday Schools or Jesus Camp or whatever. Notice the difference in lifestyle between the Arabic World and Europe/US? Here, there is Islam. In Europe and the US, there is freedom – of choice, of speech, etc… Here, ignorance and a barbaric lifestyle is the normal – I wonder why! I personally am not ready to share lands with Muslims if they are going to whine about how “wrong” my beliefs are – whatever they are – if they are going to make me wait for their asses because they are currently having a prayer, if they are going to keep shouting their prayers out five times a days producing nothing but noise and pointless subjects (about how others are just wrong for very obscure reasons) and if they will not admit my personal freedom.
Thank You.
Sphinx- Little things like the “In God we trust”, the pledge of allegiance, and placing a hand on the Bible suggest that the country was founded and is run by religious people. Other things, like benefit of clergy were abolished early in our nation’s history. but vjp is right, and I’d say that we’re secular in the sense that we’re a long way from Saudi Arabia.
I forgot to note: Saudi Arabia… The great holy God-equal Sharia Law is being applied there with _zero_ tolerance.
Fred, to address your first point, I never whined about Christianity in Europe and the US sucking, and I won’t because it doesn’t. Please find any passage that implied me saying that. The examples I brought about “Jesus Camp” or “Sodomy in Sunday schools” were meant to show how stupid it is to generalize entire religious institutions with such obscure (!) phenomena. And I’d appreciate it if people stopped misunderstanding this, and associating this with attacks on Christianity, especially with sodomy being against it and not one of its principles.
I am NOT pinning blame on any belief system, nor am I flaming “The West” or any Western society, especially when I’m being hosted well by one, but there are some very specific incidents of double standards that I like to point out. Here being a country founded on non-secular principles, which I think is alright, and then going after others for being non-secular as well. I believe that this is emphasized in the post well enough.
THIS very point is what I find strange, and not an issue of “The US sucks”, “Europe sucks” or “Egypt is so much better”. Somehow I’m always coming under fire for “blaming the West”, “hating the West”, or “Wishing all Jews would die” (Yes, somebody was recently stupid enough to claim that). I thought you knew me well enough to notice that I have more than enough things to criticize about my own society and people, and how they practice their religion.
Maybe I’m entitled to give back the very first remark you gave me: Go live in Europe or the US if you like it so much. Note that I personally dislike such statements, but if this is what you’ll tell me for allegedly dissing Christians or Christianity (which you know I would never do), then I feel I may say it to you, as you have explicitly criticized Islam and Muslims right now.
And by the way, Saudi Arabia is the last country I’d take as a model of Sharia Law, or Islamic principles for that matter, because somehow they’ve got it completely wrong at parts. It’s like saying Democracy has failed because country XYZ isn’t democratic.
Chen, this is not meant as to equate the US with Saudi politics (Which I don’t exactly regard as a flowery model of how things should be). I already talked about the point of this post to Fred.
Fair enough. I am leaving for Stuttgart in a couple of months – for good I hope
If you need anything, or are passing by München, you know how to reach me.
Sphinx. Don’t confuse religious based morality for a theocratic stance on issues. America is secular in that it’s check and balances dictate such.
In2thefray, but also don’t forget that the Evangelicals have had a major religiously oriented influence on America’s foreign policy, e.g. with the Iraq War and the unconditional support for Israel.
I’m not claiming that the US is a theocracy, but IMHO I do think that it’s not as secular as most people believe.
The nation is really secular. There are some token remnants of a faithful people and religiously-based government, but they don’t count for much.
Sure, the Pledge of Allegiance says “under God,” but a tremendous number of people don’t believe or care about it. The same goes for “In God we Trust.” Sure, it’s the national motto and it appears on our currency.
Most people don’t care about that, either. Sort of like Monticello on the back of the nickel. I don’t reckon that most people know what it is, either.
There are many believers, and the religious right does have a certain amount of power. But all that means is that we aren’t an entirely-atheist nation, and we still have some traditions of a more-religious time.
Good post, you have a eye for contradictions/double standards. Keep your eye sharp..
It’s hard to make points about others without falling into the “tu quoque” trap. Hard not to throw stones. In Europe and the US there are remains of religiously based laws, but we hardly notice them.
Now, if y’asked me, I’d say, USA is a secular state, but a religious nation. Contrary to Denmark, which has a state church, but the nation (ie. the population and the institutions) is secular. Guess the same applies to Germany.
IMO a country can be as religious as it wishes, as long as it does not discriminate on religious grounds. That is my main problem with the MB in Egypt and elsewhere. “Sharia Law is the corner stone of legislation”
I’d take the Declararion of Human Rights over Shari’a anytime.
Thanks, but I think the credit should go to the author of this answer.
Wow Sphinx, it takes almost nothing on your part for people to show up and start bashing Islam or bringing up terrorism. I would ask the same question had I not been to the U.S., honestly. It is hard to tell between our news, our movies, our politics, etc. And that’s just for us Americans, I don’t even want to know how confusing this place looks to foreigners!
That’s a great point I didn’t really think of. Thanks a lot for bringing it up!
But during 4 remaining years of Uni, it’s unlikely to happen any time soon..
I’ll be sure to let you know if I set foot in America sometime